but they have really, really lashed out at all of us and accused us -- well, some of us anyway, of trying to influence the next conclave and the election. but it's kind of strange that kind of accusation. >> it's interesting, robert, because the accusation by some church officials that the media is focusing too much on this, i don't think the media has focused much on this at all over the years. if you report on this a lot, frankly, people kind of turn it off because they feel like i've heard about it, there's nothing new there, but the details that came out, the stuff cardinal mahoney is accused of doing, it's shocking. >> no one is to blame for any of this, anderson, except the hierarchy. they masterminded it, they covered it up. they're now continuing to behave in a way as if they're the victims. they're not the victims. and you're right, it has not been covered the way that victims would like it to be covered. but the new pope is going to have to take this bull by the horns and do something real radical including firing anybody who has covered it up. i was fired, you know, when i was